Hello everyone,
This thread will be concerning the difficult doctrines of excommunication, ecclesiastical discipline, the love, and wrath of God. All my statements are not meant to criticize anyone personally, but this is strictly within the motives of trying to gain a better understanding of the Catholic doctrine of the Church and overcoming some of my own barriers that stand between myself and crossing the Tiber. Having said this, I would appreciate logically rigorous and mentally engaging comments. I ask any simple posts re-iterating simple catholic truths that simply dismiss the real logic of what is being presented.
Many Catholics today are concerned how public figures can be actively pro-abortion and yet be allowed in the Church. Not only are they still considered members of Christ's body, they are allowed to receive the Eucharist. I can only think of a few names in particular, but this is just an example of something that "seems" to be widespread within the Catholic Church, at least in America.
My basic argument (thesis) is that the NT describes the Church as a community of people who have been saved from sin, Satan, the World, and death. This salvation if of course not applied in it's totality at the moment of conversion, but it remains a process over which grave danger is possible in falling away. Grant this, the community itself remains this characteristic, that the individuals composed within it are all in the process of being saved from sin, particularly the practice of sin. Secondly, because this is a characteristic of the Church, it must stick out when someone or another is not exhibiting this processional redemption from sin, but rather is indulging in apathy or even public gross mortal sin. This type of behavior is immediately judged, if not by the minds of his/her peers, simply by the apparent contradiction between the ill-behaving person and the holiness and righteousness seeking others. Thirdly, because the Church is a community where the redemption of Christ is carried out, anyone who does not wish to continue as a participant in this process, comes under the discipline of the authorities. However much Jesus' guidelines have been understood in various ways, it remains that ultimately, if a brother or sister remains impenitent over a particular sin, he/she is to be excommunicated, looked upon as a heathen and a tax collector, prayed for, and pleaded to be saved from sin.
Now, I grew up Catholic. I think many of you already understand how in American Catholicism, it can almost seem as though it is an open door policy with a dont-have-to-talk-to-anyone practicality. It seems as if the whole scenario is a public necessity where the viewers come and then go on their way. Kind of like a town meeting back hundreds of years ago, before a busy day in the town. This of course is not the will of the Pope, I'm sure. Hence his program of evangelization. But honestly ask yourself, when was the last time you had ever heard a priest get up and say , by name, "So and So was in the practice of sexual immorality, and despite our love and pleadings for him to repent and receive God's mercy, he has refused to repent and we are now forced to make known this person as excommunicated from Christ's Church until he repents. The Church requires you to shun this man, to have no fellowship with him, to not even speak a word to him until he repents. . ".
I am not saying that this has never happened. I am just curious because I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated by the Catholic Church, besides what we read in the ancient historical writings, up until medieval times.
This thread will be concerning the difficult doctrines of excommunication, ecclesiastical discipline, the love, and wrath of God. All my statements are not meant to criticize anyone personally, but this is strictly within the motives of trying to gain a better understanding of the Catholic doctrine of the Church and overcoming some of my own barriers that stand between myself and crossing the Tiber. Having said this, I would appreciate logically rigorous and mentally engaging comments. I ask any simple posts re-iterating simple catholic truths that simply dismiss the real logic of what is being presented.
Many Catholics today are concerned how public figures can be actively pro-abortion and yet be allowed in the Church. Not only are they still considered members of Christ's body, they are allowed to receive the Eucharist. I can only think of a few names in particular, but this is just an example of something that "seems" to be widespread within the Catholic Church, at least in America.
My basic argument (thesis) is that the NT describes the Church as a community of people who have been saved from sin, Satan, the World, and death. This salvation if of course not applied in it's totality at the moment of conversion, but it remains a process over which grave danger is possible in falling away. Grant this, the community itself remains this characteristic, that the individuals composed within it are all in the process of being saved from sin, particularly the practice of sin. Secondly, because this is a characteristic of the Church, it must stick out when someone or another is not exhibiting this processional redemption from sin, but rather is indulging in apathy or even public gross mortal sin. This type of behavior is immediately judged, if not by the minds of his/her peers, simply by the apparent contradiction between the ill-behaving person and the holiness and righteousness seeking others. Thirdly, because the Church is a community where the redemption of Christ is carried out, anyone who does not wish to continue as a participant in this process, comes under the discipline of the authorities. However much Jesus' guidelines have been understood in various ways, it remains that ultimately, if a brother or sister remains impenitent over a particular sin, he/she is to be excommunicated, looked upon as a heathen and a tax collector, prayed for, and pleaded to be saved from sin.
Now, I grew up Catholic. I think many of you already understand how in American Catholicism, it can almost seem as though it is an open door policy with a dont-have-to-talk-to-anyone practicality. It seems as if the whole scenario is a public necessity where the viewers come and then go on their way. Kind of like a town meeting back hundreds of years ago, before a busy day in the town. This of course is not the will of the Pope, I'm sure. Hence his program of evangelization. But honestly ask yourself, when was the last time you had ever heard a priest get up and say , by name, "So and So was in the practice of sexual immorality, and despite our love and pleadings for him to repent and receive God's mercy, he has refused to repent and we are now forced to make known this person as excommunicated from Christ's Church until he repents. The Church requires you to shun this man, to have no fellowship with him, to not even speak a word to him until he repents. . ".
I am not saying that this has never happened. I am just curious because I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated by the Catholic Church, besides what we read in the ancient historical writings, up until medieval times.